Comments on: The Debate of Flash, Usability, and Standards http://www.devlounge.net/column/the-debate-of-flash-usability-and-standards Design, Develop, and Grow Wed, 08 Feb 2012 09:03:06 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Stefan Koenig http://www.devlounge.net/column/the-debate-of-flash-usability-and-standards/comment-page-1#comment-60938 Stefan Koenig Tue, 03 Jul 2007 20:05:08 +0000 http://www.devlounge.net/articles/general/the-debate-of-flash-usability-and-standards#comment-60938 I like flash a lot: - you can build sites as you want them to be - you can serve greate usability - and even accessibility is given with just one plug in but flash is front-end, so there will never be a social site 100% made in flash (you still need a db back-end etc.) ;o) Anyway, i've read of ways to make a flashsite even with the ability to use browsers back button and that SE can crawl the content. I will put it on my list and try to code an example over the summer (if i find some bored spare time). untill then i will stick to CSS + xHTML + JS (a.k.a. Ajax) :o) I like flash a lot:
- you can build sites as you want them to be
- you can serve greate usability
- and even accessibility is given with just one plug in

but flash is front-end, so there will never be a social site 100% made in flash (you still need a db back-end etc.) ;o)

Anyway, i’ve read of ways to make a flashsite even with the ability to use browsers back button and that SE can crawl the content. I will put it on my list and try to code an example over the summer (if i find some bored spare time). untill then i will stick to CSS + xHTML + JS (a.k.a. Ajax) :o )

]]> By: Jesse Skinner http://www.devlounge.net/column/the-debate-of-flash-usability-and-standards/comment-page-1#comment-52212 Jesse Skinner Tue, 12 Jun 2007 21:14:10 +0000 http://www.devlounge.net/articles/general/the-debate-of-flash-usability-and-standards#comment-52212 Ouch, sounds painful, Andrew. I think you're absolutely right - the site needs to be built in HTML. How can you convince your bosses? Talk about Search Engine Optimization - Google will never find individuals pages if they're tucked behind Flash interfaces and have no text content. And talk about Ajax - sounds like they'd appreciate some buzzwordy goodness. Hell, with Ajax and CSS, all the Flashy stuff they're doing is likely possible.. and the 1% of things that might be out of JavaScript's reach (music and video, for instance) can still be done with a bit of Flash. Do your best, and kudos for trying. But if you face the stubbornness of a team stuck in 1998 just doing what they've always done, you can always go along with it and enjoy watching it go down in flames. Just remember to practice your "I told you so" speech. Ouch, sounds painful, Andrew.

I think you’re absolutely right – the site needs to be built in HTML. How can you convince your bosses? Talk about Search Engine Optimization – Google will never find individuals pages if they’re tucked behind Flash interfaces and have no text content. And talk about Ajax – sounds like they’d appreciate some buzzwordy goodness.

Hell, with Ajax and CSS, all the Flashy stuff they’re doing is likely possible.. and the 1% of things that might be out of JavaScript’s reach (music and video, for instance) can still be done with a bit of Flash.

Do your best, and kudos for trying. But if you face the stubbornness of a team stuck in 1998 just doing what they’ve always done, you can always go along with it and enjoy watching it go down in flames. Just remember to practice your “I told you so” speech.

]]> By: Andy http://www.devlounge.net/column/the-debate-of-flash-usability-and-standards/comment-page-1#comment-51733 Andy Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:08:11 +0000 http://www.devlounge.net/articles/general/the-debate-of-flash-usability-and-standards#comment-51733 If you haven't already, you should read the first 5 chapters of "Web Accessibility Web Standards and Regulatory Compliance". (<a href="http://www.friendsofed.com/book.html?isbn=1590596382" rel="nofollow">http://www.friendsofed.com/book.html?isbn=1590596382</a> It really sets the stage as to why not considering accessibility will hobble your site. After that, you'll probably want to read the whole thing. He makes many compelling arguments you could probably use as ammo in your workplace interactions on this subject. He's really opened my mind to the fact that accessibility isn't all about disabilities, it's about different abilities and making a site that accommodates them. It blows my mind that social sites are being made that aren't accessible - they're social sites! You want tons of people to visit them so why would you make it so they cant visit? That would limit revenue! If you haven’t already, you should read the first 5 chapters of “Web Accessibility Web Standards and Regulatory Compliance”. (http://www.friendsofed.com/book.html?isbn=1590596382
It really sets the stage as to why not considering accessibility will hobble your site. After that, you’ll probably want to read the whole thing. He makes many compelling arguments you could probably use as ammo in your workplace interactions on this subject.

He’s really opened my mind to the fact that accessibility isn’t all about disabilities, it’s about different abilities and making a site that accommodates them.

It blows my mind that social sites are being made that aren’t accessible – they’re social sites! You want tons of people to visit them so why would you make it so they cant visit? That would limit revenue!

]]> By: Roy Anger http://www.devlounge.net/column/the-debate-of-flash-usability-and-standards/comment-page-1#comment-51645 Roy Anger Mon, 11 Jun 2007 06:09:22 +0000 http://www.devlounge.net/articles/general/the-debate-of-flash-usability-and-standards#comment-51645 “Could a social networking program be successful in 100% flash?” I don't think so. Many people have grown frustrated with MySpace and its design and it doesn't even have the 'weight' of a full flash interface. Facebook seems to be a possible MySpace killer, and its fairly light and fast and its design allows for the addition of new services and now applications. virb is another option, and it seems to be built around web standards and light, fast XHTML. I don't think the average user wants to deal with the slowness of a full flash interface for social networking. “Could a social networking program be successful in 100% flash?”

I don’t think so. Many people have grown frustrated with MySpace and its design and it doesn’t even have the ‘weight’ of a full flash interface. Facebook seems to be a possible MySpace killer, and its fairly light and fast and its design allows for the addition of new services and now applications. virb is another option, and it seems to be built around web standards and light, fast XHTML. I don’t think the average user wants to deal with the slowness of a full flash interface for social networking.

]]> By: Mae http://www.devlounge.net/column/the-debate-of-flash-usability-and-standards/comment-page-1#comment-51387 Mae Sun, 10 Jun 2007 15:13:22 +0000 http://www.devlounge.net/articles/general/the-debate-of-flash-usability-and-standards#comment-51387 I think the main problem with this is that they have "grown too big" to learn the new stuff. Accessibility and usability is all about getting them (our bosses and specially our clients) educated. Just my 2 cents :) I think the main problem with this is that they have “grown too big” to learn the new stuff. Accessibility and usability is all about getting them (our bosses and specially our clients) educated. Just my 2 cents :)

]]> By: Andrew Kelly http://www.devlounge.net/column/the-debate-of-flash-usability-and-standards/comment-page-1#comment-51224 Andrew Kelly Fri, 08 Jun 2007 20:46:52 +0000 http://www.devlounge.net/articles/general/the-debate-of-flash-usability-and-standards#comment-51224 Matthijs - I agree 100% with you, which is why I am so conflicted. I just wanted to get the thoughts on how others viewed it. Bryan - It is difficult. I'm making a lot of headway with the new hires, who 2 out of 3 already share my thought process. Just a shame we're not the one's running this place. Regardless it's amazing to me, to us get so many clients. We could be working some of the largest companies in Canada, and the flash stuff is what sells. I guess as long as things look cool, when it comes to marketing... Nothing else matters. Both from the marketing outlook, and the business outlook. I find it fascinating though. Matthijs – I agree 100% with you, which is why I am so conflicted. I just wanted to get the thoughts on how others viewed it.

Bryan – It is difficult. I’m making a lot of headway with the new hires, who 2 out of 3 already share my thought process. Just a shame we’re not the one’s running this place.

Regardless it’s amazing to me, to us get so many clients. We could be working some of the largest companies in Canada, and the flash stuff is what sells. I guess as long as things look cool, when it comes to marketing… Nothing else matters. Both from the marketing outlook, and the business outlook.

I find it fascinating though.

]]> By: Bryan http://www.devlounge.net/column/the-debate-of-flash-usability-and-standards/comment-page-1#comment-50860 Bryan Thu, 07 Jun 2007 13:12:59 +0000 http://www.devlounge.net/articles/general/the-debate-of-flash-usability-and-standards#comment-50860 Oh, I feel your pain. I took a position with a marketing/advertising agency last year, and it's been a frustrating experience. My #1 priority has been to ween us off of designing full-flash sites and try to educate my co-workers on why those are a such bad idea, and what the benefits of standards-based development are. I'm making headway, but most people like to work within their comfort zone - this has been and will continue to be a slow process. Oh, I feel your pain. I took a position with a marketing/advertising agency last year, and it’s been a frustrating experience.

My #1 priority has been to ween us off of designing full-flash sites and try to educate my co-workers on why those are a such bad idea, and what the benefits of standards-based development are.

I’m making headway, but most people like to work within their comfort zone – this has been and will continue to be a slow process.

]]> By: Matthijs http://www.devlounge.net/column/the-debate-of-flash-usability-and-standards/comment-page-1#comment-50815 Matthijs Thu, 07 Jun 2007 08:00:05 +0000 http://www.devlounge.net/articles/general/the-debate-of-flash-usability-and-standards#comment-50815 "When the goal is to make something look good, do we need to sacrifice accessibility, and usability?" No. Why would you? They are not mutually exclusive (in my opinion). "are standards, XHTML, and CSS holding designers back from making something unique and amazing?" No. Enough examples around the net. "Is full flash sites still popular, or have they run their course?" Personally I hate them. Cannot see any use for them. Except maybe for a game on a children's site or something. Even then I would make it only a sub-part or sub-site next to a normal website. "Could a social networking program be successful in 100% flash?" Maybe, but my guess is that it is a lot more difficult. As an example. How am I going to bookmark a page to send/show it to a friend? “When the goal is to make something look good, do we need to sacrifice accessibility, and usability?”
No. Why would you? They are not mutually exclusive (in my opinion).

“are standards, XHTML, and CSS holding designers back from making something unique and amazing?”
No. Enough examples around the net.

“Is full flash sites still popular, or have they run their course?”
Personally I hate them. Cannot see any use for them. Except maybe for a game on a children’s site or something. Even then I would make it only a sub-part or sub-site next to a normal website.

“Could a social networking program be successful in 100% flash?”
Maybe, but my guess is that it is a lot more difficult. As an example. How am I going to bookmark a page to send/show it to a friend?

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